Worst Fans in Europe?

[Devil's Advocate]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6717793.stm

UEFA seem to have it in for Liverpool at the moment.

What I would like to know is how many incidents since 2003 have there been involving other Clubs' fans? They are quick to quote Liverpool as having had 25 incidents (equates to just over 6 per season), but don't say how this compares with other Clubs' fans.

Also they have reached 2 finals, meaning they have been in it longer than most clubs and the risk of incidents increases as the clamour for tickets and the need to "be there" goes through the roof.

Personally I think each Club has its own minority of idiots and UEFA shouldn't give them the air time they are doing. Deal with it in a more diplomatic way than making it public, unless of course the agenda here is to villify our Clubs and help with their other agenda of reducing the number of places available to English Clubs.

[Jantje]

I would have thought Roma, Galatasaray & Feyenoord would all have been worse than Liverpool

[king billy]

Two of the worst disasters in history involved Liverpool fans at Heysel and Hillsborough, both involving fans pushing, shoving and acting in a lawless fashion....

Liverpool more than any other club attract a huge scally brigade.....

They got us banned from Europe before - they have history!!

I think UEFA are right TBH, look at the behaviour of the Liverpool fans in the final the other week, mugging their own fans for their tickets, storming the barriers and turnstiles trying to get in for nowt, buying known conterfeit tickets at the expense of their own fans with genuine ones......there was none of that the year before when Arsenal were in the final!!

[tony d]

Two of the worst disasters in history involved Liverpool fans at Heysel and Hillsborough, both involving fans pushing, shoving and acting in a lawless fashion....

Liverpool more than any other club attract a huge scally brigade.....

They got us banned from Europe before - they have history!!

I think UEFA are right TBH, look at the behaviour of the Liverpool fans in the final the other week, mugging their own fans for their tickets, storming the barriers and turnstiles trying to get in for nowt, buying known conterfeit tickets at the expense of their own fans with genuine ones......there was none of that the year before when Arsenal were in the final!!

Totally agree Matty... Only a miracle saved another Hillsborough in Athens..

Shocking events litter their history...

For once the powers that be seem to have got it right..

[Devil's Advocate]

Two of the worst disasters in history involved Liverpool fans at Heysel and Hillsborough, both involving fans pushing, shoving and acting in a lawless fashion....

Liverpool more than any other club attract a huge scally brigade.....

They got us banned from Europe before - they have history!!

I think UEFA are right TBH, look at the behaviour of the Liverpool fans in the final the other week, mugging their own fans for their tickets, storming the barriers and turnstiles trying to get in for nowt, buying known conterfeit tickets at the expense of their own fans with genuine ones......there was none of that the year before when Arsenal were in the final!!

Yes but there are better ways of doing it, after all in many people's eyes UEFA weren't faultless in contributing to the ticketing farce.

Re Hillsborough, I don't think anyone has ever said it was entirely the fault of the fans, many errors by many people contributed to that disaster. No-one ever blamed the smoker who dropped his fag for the fire in '85, more that a combination of things led to the disaster. IN the case of Hillsborough the police had a big hand in that tragedy.

I don't know enough about Heysel to comment, other than I remember it and remember that it was the height of English hooliganism and probably brought to a head the problems that we were causing in Europe.

I just think to single out one team so quick off the back of the final and the ticket debacle is clueless by UEFA. This report is not supposed to be about this year's final but it is clearly being published to make Liverpool out to be the sole reason for the problems.

[king billy]

Sorry superfat - disagree!!

We need to stop tip-toeing around and trying to be PC - the crush at hillsborough was caused by a CRUSH - a crush caused by fans pushing so hard that it bent steel crash barriers - what sort of mentality makes a huge group of people push that hard? The police didn't start the crushing, they made errors but were probably feerfull of a riot outside the ground by the same idiots....

The fire at City was started by an accident by one person....

Hillsborough was caused by a few errors by a the police and the actions of many, many hundreds of people surging, pushing and crushing their own fans!!...

[king billy]

Re the ticketing too - it was the same for Arsenal fans and they didn't cause trouble....

Yep it could be better and they should hold the final in a minimum capacity of 80,000 stadium IMO - but you'd still get nobheads hell bent on trying to get in for nothing and causing trouble....

[eurobantam]

If you read the reports into hillsborough you find that the reason why there was a crush was because numpties directed all the liverpool fans into the wrong pens that were already full. The people entering from the back did not know the pens were full, they could'nt see the front as the were going up steps to the terrace, as they had been directed to. There was inadequate signage, lack of stweards and police and the stadium didn't even havea safety certificate.
That said, UEFA have a point and even Liverpool fans were complaining about the behaviour of some of their fans.
To blame UEFA is a bit off in my opnion. OK they should have given Liverpool more tickets but loads went out there knowing the game was sold out. Everyone knew what the allocation was as soon as the venue was announced and instead of moaning about it the club should have encouraged fans without tickets to stay away.

[Devil's Advocate]

Sorry superfat - disagree!!

We need to stop tip-toeing around and trying to be PC - the crush at hillsborough was caused by a CRUSH - a crush caused by fans pushing so hard that it bent steel crash barriers - what sort of mentality makes a huge group of people push that hard? The police didn't start the crushing, they made errors but were probably feerfull of a riot outside the ground by the same idiots....

The fire at City was started by an accident by one person....

Hillsborough was caused by a few errors by a the police and the actions of many, many hundreds of people surging, pushing and crushing their own fans!!...

I'm not absolving Liverpool fans of all blame, but I think that in context the reason this report has been published the way it has is because it serves a purpose to deflect any criticism away from UEFA and make it all Liverpool's fault.

God help us if Man U had have made the final as well, then you probably would have had a Heysel/Hillsborough all rolled into one.

In terms of the disasters, football has had a lot of lessons to learn and for me it takes far too long for it to do this. It reacted to the hooligan problems by fencing fans in, which inevitably caused many of the deaths at Hillsborough, even with a surge of fans and the police reaction had there been no fences it would have been nowhere near as bad.

We were fortunate at City that fences hadn't become the norm, otherwise we might have been talking 3 or 4 figure casualties rather than 56.

Contrary to what some (popular) tabloid said at the time, the Hillsborough disaster was not caused by drunken, fired up Liverpool fans without tickets, it was caused in part by an inability to manage a large crowd moving forward (as crowds do), which was then funnelled into a space not large enough to accomodate the numbers, from which there was only one exit, basically where they had come in. Hence a crush occurred. The actions by the police and the (sometimes accepted as natural) reaction of the media, stewards, viewers etc that this was a hooligan act led to delays in averting the disaster and hence further deaths and injuries. it isn't as simple as saying they were all scallies and were deliberately pushing forward to cause a crush or get in on the cheap.

Anyway, I think UEFA are crap! tup:

[king billy]

If you read the reports into hillsborough you find that the reason why there was a crush was because numpties directed all the liverpool fans into the wrong pens that were already full

A report made by tip toeing around - so people weren't upset or offended....

The fact is - it wasn't just a bit of pushing - it was violent surging that caused metal crash barriers designed to withstand extremely high pressures - to bend and deform - that isn't simple high spirited pushing....

Stop being so PC and naive!! A bunch of idiots pushed so hard that they killed their fellow fans.....

[king billy]

Anyway, I think UEFA are crap! tup:

Naturally!!....tup:

[Devil's Advocate]

A report made by tip toeing around - so people weren't upset or offended....

The fact is - it wasn't just a bit of pushing - it was violent surging that caused metal crash barriers designed to withstand extremely high pressures - to bend and deform - that isn't simple high spirited pushing....

Stop being so PC and naive!! A bunch of idiots pushed so hard that they killed their fellow fans.....

If you were in the middle what would you have done? You can't go backwards, you can only try move forwards. Think about it before you answer. Innocent people were involved in this so-called "pushing".

[cartmanbantam]

I have to agree with euro about HB, they were directed that way and cannot possibly have had a clue what was going on at the front. Regardless of any other kind of behaviour, if they had been directed to the side pens it would not have happened. Regarding Athens i don't know the full story, however what i know is what i saw on TV which was loads of liverpool fans being interviwed in the morning, a big group of maybe 100 or more...only one had (or admitted to having) a ticket. Far too many went over without a ticket and far too many willingly bought counterfeit tickets knowing full well the game was sold out. I also saw liverpool fans running past security etc to get in. I think any of those people who bought the fake tickets and ran past the barriiers did so knowing they could put their fellow fans at risk. No doubt if anything had happened the excuses would come out, but at the end of the day it would have been there own actions that would have been to blame.

Carty

[king billy]

If you were in the middle what would you have done? You can't go backwards, you can only try move forwards. Think about it before you answer. Innocent people were involved in this so-called "pushing".


I never said they did it on purpose - but the police have had to face up to their errors - there are many, many Liverpool fans who haven't have to face up to their errors!!

We live in a society of not taking responsibility for anything and blaming others....

[Devil's Advocate]

I never said they did it on purpose - but the police have had to face up to their errors - there are many, many Liverpool fans who haven't have to face up to their errors!!

We live in a society of not taking responsibility for anything and blaming others....

I know, and how I wish we could get rid of this blame and scapegoat culture.

[cartmanbantam]

KB, do you not think they have to face up to their errors every day for the rest of their lives?? Probably much like the guy who dropped his cig. :(

Carty

[eurobantam]

KB, are you really accusing the Talyor report of "tip toeing around"? The whole point of the justice for the 96 campaign is that the Police have not faced up their faults, although I wish the scousers would stop banging on about it. You should read the Taylor report, but there is a good summary here; http://www.liv.ac.uk/footballindustry/hborough.html

"The failure to close or block the tunnel leading into the already full pens three and four once the police had ordered Gate C to be opened was the immediate cause of the disaster".

[tony d]

Worst fans in Europe has to be the fans of Scooch ffs...

If these sad bastards had only picked up their phones throughout Europe things could have been so different...:poo: jump: jump: :rolleyes:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_01/scoochR_468x318.jpg

[Spoonhead]

I remember the day after the final in Athens feeling so sorry for the genuine fans who managed to get a ticket but didn't get into the game. We'd all like to be there if our team got to the final of a major comp but it's not possible. Simple as that. Liverpool fans should know better than most that too many people at a ground can be fatal. Those fans that got in with photo copies or nicked tickets and were standing on the steps for the whole game should be ashamed of themselves. All seater grounds need these areas to be clear in case on emergency evacuation is required. I think UEFA could handle things alot better but I agree that these Liverpool fans do themselves no favours.

[Devil's Advocate]

The voice of reason so far has come from the likes of Phil Hammond, whose son died at hillsborough. I acknowledge that the fans in part caused the problems but the authorities are equally to blame if not more.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premiership/liverpool/article1845156.ece


“I texted my wife, Hilda, and said, ‘This is going to be another Hillsborough’. I thought I was going to die. We were pushed up against fences while police were wielding their batons and shields. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing and I’m never going to a major European final again.”


But rebelliousness should not be confused with relinquishing responsibility. The majority of Liverpool supporters are furious about the minority whose actions nearly led to disaster on Wednesday, but that minority are saying it was the fault of Uefa and the Greek police.

So the moral of the story is that to single out one party to blame is folly and a full review is needed to ensure that future finals and events are safe and handled in a better way than the age-old style of treating fans like cattle.

[king billy]

So the moral of the story is that to single out one party to blame is folly and a full review is needed to ensure that future finals and events are safe and handled in a better way than the age-old style of treating fans like cattle.

How come its only Liverpool fans that have this problem though?

I don't see Arsenal complaining last year - or AC Milan fans, or Barcelona fans.....

I personally think the Champs league final should be held in grounds with a minimum 80,000 capacity - if that only means 7 or 8 grounds are up to it - then tough......but come off it Mark - this problem has been highlighted and caused by the Liverpool idiots - police don't go in with batons for the sake of it - the right minded Liverpool fans should be rooting out these tossers if they feel so strongly about it!!

[Devil's Advocate]

How come its only Liverpool fans that have this problem though?

I don't see Arsenal complaining last year - or AC Milan fans, or Barcelona fans.....

I personally think the Champs league final should be held in grounds with a minimum 80,000 capacity - if that only means 7 or 8 grounds are up to it - then tough......but come off it Mark - this problem has been highlighted and caused by the Liverpool idiots - police don't go in with batons for the sake of it - the right minded Liverpool fans should be rooting out these tossers if they feel so strongly about it!!

There was a guy on Sky Sports News last night who said Arsenal had the same problems last year but it wasn't spread all over the papers or the tv. Perhaps the Liverpool fans are blessed with having the "scally" tag so anything in the slightest is picked up by the media.

Read Phil Hammond's comments, Matt. I can't see how he would possibly have been an "idiot" having lost his son at Hillsborough yet he was there being confronted by riot police wielding batons. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction???? Police confront a large crowd, crowd by its very nature continues to move forward, which immovabple object budges first?

I'm not saying the fans aren't to blame at all, but I do think the way fans are treated doesn'#t help in these situations. You'll have been there when the coppers have treated fans like cattle, and frogmarched you to and from the ground. More often than not that includes people not intent on causing any trouble. What about the recent stuff with Ranger at an away game (Rotherham?), where fans were stopped from leaving causing congestion at the turnstiles and leading to some minor incidents. It isn't as easy to say it's the fans fault, it's much more complicated than that, and the way fans are treated in no small way leads to the problems that UEFA have highlighted, except they won't be big enough to accept they are partly to blame. The ground had no turnstiles for crying out loud! What do they expect to happen?

[Skyebantam]

i find it incredible how in the press / UEFA there is no mention of the thousands of well behaved Liverpool fans. But then again that doesn't sell papers and generate controversy.

[Jantje]

Anybody watch the Real Football Factories last night with Danny Dyer in Italy?

Don't tell me English fans are as bad as the Roma, Juve & Lazio fans on there last night.

There might be a small element, criminal element even, and a few more scally types but not on the scale showed in Rome last night

[Devil's Advocate]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6721545.stm

Caborn asks Platini to stop playing the blame game and look for solutions.

He also points out that Man Utd had their problems in Lens and Rome. So it isn't always Liverpool. Arguably the police reaction to English fans was again a major factor in the issues with the Man Utd fans, although clearly in Rome there was an element of an alleged arranged "meet".

[Parrot]

I wonder if UEFA have watched Danny Dyers International football factories on Bravo?

I cant remember last time English fans stabbed to death 2 visiting supporters, murdered a police officer, attacked the referee or threw a motorbike off the top tier of the San Siro :(

But they aren't the easy target the English supporters are, are they? tdwn:

[yankeebantam]

them scouse gits wernt directed all the way from liverpool without tickets were they?

[Jantje]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6721545.stm

A bit of backtracking here methinks, typical UEFA